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Message from our Director

15/11/2017

Fellow Beekeepers,
Jacqui, a Buckfast beekeeper, and Colette, a keeper of Apis m. mellifera, Native Irish Honey Bees, started down a parallel path some months ago, seeking information, openness and transparency within the Irish beekeeping world on behalf of the members of our respective beekeeping associations. Our paths intersected at different points, and in spite of our support for very different bees, our aims and objectives were the same, A keen sense of justice and concern for the serious issues currently facing beekeepers, honeybees and pollinators spurned us on.
Several months on, we have become firm friends and we continue to work consistently in pursuit of the aims and objectives of IBA CLG, which is established as an open and transparent and equalitarian alternative organisation that will facilitate ALL beekeepers throughout the island of Ireland whilst addressing the very serious threats facing honey bees and pollinators.
The Irish Beekeepers’ Association, C.L.G. was formed with a committee of nine elected on the 21st October last. All elected have agreed with the aims and objectives as outlined, and in particular, we have committed to an organisation with mutual respect for ALL.
The IBA CLG, endorses The All-Ireland Pollinator Plan, in support of honey bees and all pollinators.
http://www.biodiversityireland.ie/projects/irish-pollinator-initiative/all-ireland-pollinator-plan/
As a new association in it’s infancy, we have a lot to do. We have an energetic committee of nine strong- minded directors working in unison as a team and we have achieved so much in such a short period of time it is breathtaking. (I am still catching my breath and the speed at which the committee is working, with each person continuing to play their part!) However, there remains a lot more for us to do to ensure the very best national beekeeping association for you and all beekeepers joining us.
To ensure that we focus on the task ahead, I suggest our focus now be on moving forward, keeping to the front the needs and concerns we have in common, and not on our differences as individual beekeepers.
Together we can move mountains; look at what has been achieved since the 21st October!
Onwards and forward we continue in unison.
Lean ar aghaidh leis an obair mhaith!to edit.

34 Comments

Gearóid Ó Fathaigh

15/11/2017 17:48:28

Well done to everyone! The road ahead is an exciting one for all of us...

Keith Ball

17/11/2017 13:13:14

"Unison"?

Colette O'Connell

17/11/2017 20:44:54

Hi Keith,
Definition of unison - simultaneous performance or utterance of action or speech, and this is the context in which it was used.
Regards
Colette

Jacqui Glisson

17/11/2017 21:07:11

Keith, My definition of unison is this.

When you criticize my friends and beekeeping colleagues, while admitting you don't have all the facts; I will quote Mark Lawrence.

“There's a road to hell that is paved with good intentions but it's a long route. The quicker path is paved with the kind of ignorance that clever men who just don't want to know are best at.”

Go in peace. Enjoy your beekeeping and the association of your choice.

Keith Ball

18/11/2017 19:22:08

Hi Jacqui,

I would like to assure you that I am a little sceptical of the version of "the facts" as I have heard them from those who I am sure you would not regard as your friends.

When I asked for clarification as to the reasons why the IBA was being set up, I was, in my way, asking for your version of the facts.

The reply I got from you seemed to me to be saying that you were, in effect, willing to "whisper" your version of the facts "in my ear" but that you were not willing to present your version of them openly.

I am sure that as you see it, you will have reasons for taking
up this stance but unfortunately I am not willing to engage with you on that basis.

As for intentions, I hope you will not be surprised to learn that I regard my own intentions like your own, as good - or at least, as good as anyone else's - as far as I can tell. In fact, I'd be surprised if, in this whole sorry mess you will find a single beekeeper, on whichever side of the divide they may find themselves, who does not feel that way.

And as for ignorance, please consider that it may be an advantage to have a certain distance from what has been going on. What I see is a broken beekeeping community and it is hard to see that that can be good for anyone.

But then again, when it comes to the future, we are all more or less as ignorant as eachother, don't you think?

Jacqui Glisson

18/11/2017 20:09:58

My apologies Keith.

I misunderstood your reason for not wanting to phone me and discuss this.
I will explain my personal reasons for joining the IBA CTG, but as I said in my previous post, I can't talk for anyone else.

I was not at the first congress, but my delegates who came back were traumatized.
They had never seen the type of behavior that took place that day.
I can't really comment on that, as I was not there, but the take home message was that there was severe financial strain on the organisation.
They needed the capitation fee to be increased from 30 euros to 50 euros.

Our association organised a meeting to ask our members could they afford to pay the increase. They said possibly they could afford 40 euros at a stretch, but 12 % of the association said that they would give up their membership at any increase. We were told not to accept any increase above 10 euros at congress.

So off we went to the second congress. At that meeting, and I won't bother you with the nitty gritty, an increase of 48 euros was pushed through.

We returned to our local association with the bad news.

Many of the members said that they couldn't not afford to pay 48 euros capitation.
I then thought about the beginners courses.
An association stays alive and vibrant by bringing new beekeepers in.
Its already hard for them to pay for the course, add another 48 euros for insurance and it would just be non viable. The association would have lost its established beekeepers and would not be able to attract any new ones.

I was sent off with the remit to find us affordable insurance so that my local beekeepers could afford to keep beekeeping.
While doing that I bumped into Colette from Waterford Beekeepers Association, David Lee and Mary O Riordhan who were all doing the same thing.

We realized that if we all worked together we could make the insurance more affordable for our members.

We all decided to get together and discuss how to go forward.
Do we call another EGM, although the first call for one was not honored?
Do we put members forward for positions on the executive and try and change the organisation from within, or do we take legal action?

There were 25 people representing 13 different organisations across the country, present that day.
It was a great discussion and people recounted their various experiences and tactics that had been tried to date.

There was a unanimous vote to walk away, get our own insurance and leave all the unpleasantness behind.

Again my offer to talk to you stands but I hope this goes some way to explain my own personal reasons for forming the IBA CLG.

Keith Ball

22/11/2017 23:58:58

Hi Jacqui,

Thank you for continuing, in spite of hints you have made to the contrary, to post serious and critical as well as supportive comments. I consider this a very wise policy!

Thank you also for your account of your reasons for your involvement in the formation of IBA CLG.

The Secretary of the County Limerick Beekeepers' Association, Sinead Mortell is a far better Secretary than I am Webmaster of that Association and so I did know about the capitation issue but it has only become a hot topic for me indirectly by virtue of this fracture. I assure you this is not because welcome paying higher membership fees.

In case you are wondering what for me are hot topics:

How can we do better when it comes to influencing what greets our bees when they leave the apiary?

Avoiding beekeeping dogma and celebrating our "eccentrics".

Fostering amicable disagreement.

There are others. But all of these ends are, in my view, best achieved if we remain as one body and do not associate only with those who already agree with us.

Oh yes, and maybe this is my number 1 hot topic:

How can we spend less time talking about money?

Ulrich

18/11/2017 18:02:01

Beaufort Beekeepers are very proud of the vast achievements of IBA in such short time. We fully support IBA. Finally there is a friendly and transparent top body for beekeepers in Ireland. Let's concentrate and lok forward on a exiting, open, fair and supports get association for the individual beekeeper. IBA!

Jacqui Glisson

18/11/2017 18:29:07

Thank you Beaufort Beekeepers.
Your vote of support is much appreciated

Colette O'Connell

19/11/2017 16:48:33

Thanks for the compliments everyone, public and private.

Openness and transparency is inherent in the organisation and is a legal requirement under company law. This is why the IBA CLG has been set up as a company limited by guarantee; audited accounts and rolling directors to quickly name but some of requirements. For updates on how we progress please check in on our website which is updated regularly for all to see.

All association secretaries will have received the correspondence from fellow association secretaries and individual members should look for same to understand why so many of us felt the need to set up the IBA CLG and to set it up as a company limited by guarantee.Openness and transparency is inherent in the organisation and is a legal requirement under company law. This is why the IBA CLG has been set up as a company limited by guarantee; audited accounts and rolling directors to quickly name but some of requirements.
Stay in contact in keep abreast of all developments as we continue forward in support of beekeepers, honeybees and other pollinating insects.

Patrick Walsh

22/11/2017 06:41:34

Is the openness and transparency issue around finances, or is there more to it ?

If it is simply about finances, then it seems obvious to point out that FIBKA accounts are audited, and that FIBKA Treasurer is still inviting email queries regarding 2016 accounts.

Or is there more to the transparency issue ?

More generally, and to address JG's point above ( I can't reply to her reply) about capitation increase, which was a lot, though not all, of the nonsense that went on at Congress -

Considering the benefits of membership, anyone dithering over ten or twenty euro increases in the capitation has no idea of either the set-up or ongoing costs of beekeeping, and very possibly can't afford to keep bees.

That's just the truth.

Jacqui Glisson

22/11/2017 15:29:39

Hi Patrick,
I quote from Maria Tobin Q and A document 2016 sent to the secretaries.These were questions asked by associations and answered by Maria herself.

1. Were FIBKA accounts ever audited ? To the best of our understanding, FIBKA have undertaken responsibility for the financial statement for 2016. Is this to save money ?

Maria: No. There is no requirement for an unincorporated, not-for-profit organisation to have audited accounts. It would certainly be more expensive.

On page 5 of the accounts 2016 it very clearly states that the accounts are unaudited.
The chartered accountants stated that they "had not verified the accuracy or completeness of the accounting records or explanations given to us and we do not,therefore,express any opinion on the financial matters"

Gearóid Ó Fathaigh

20/11/2017 09:45:50

I don't believe the founding of IBA CLG is a symptom of a broken beekeeping community in a sorry mess; and there's absolutely no need for a division to exist. Rather IBA CLG represents an empowerment of beekeepers acting in free association to create a modern organisation on a model which nearly all charities and many voluntary organisations are adopting. It is the legal structure which brings about fairness and transparency. IBA CLG is a progressive streamlined movement which can benefit a great many beekeeper if they wish to become members.

Jacqui Glisson

22/11/2017 15:39:59

And yes Patrick it is about more than the accounts.
Its about honesty and transparency.

For example, the president resigned on the 26th August 2017 at congress..
Why was he wearing the presidents chain of office around his neck on the 11th September at the phoenix honey show and handing out prizes?
He had resigned and had no right to misrepresent himself and his organisation at that honey show.
Many other high ranking officers were there too. Why did they allow the deception to continue?

Patrick Walsh

22/11/2017 17:12:45

Pragmatism ?

Patrick Walsh

22/11/2017 16:44:28

Hi Jacqui, thanks for the clarification.

I am certain that a member of the executive stated that suggestions of financial impropriety would be an aspersion on the firm of accountants.

Interesting.

Jacqui Glisson

22/11/2017 16:50:25

Ask your secretary for a copy of the accounts.

They would all have received it.

Have a read and make your own conclusions.

Patrick Walsh

22/11/2017 17:33:32

Hi Jacqui,

Will do.

Regards,

Patrick

Patrick Walsh

22/11/2017 17:08:27

Sorry, I hit the send button in error.

Clarification - I have not seen the accounts, and relied on what I have been personally told (in good faith, I believe) re their being audited.

I would like to get to the heart of the question of finances.

Is the fact that FIBKA accounts are not audited a problem in and of itself ?

If so, have attempts been made by delegates to past congresses, to change this ?

If not, is there a problem of impropriety, and on what grounds is that alleged ?

Jacqui Glisson

22/11/2017 17:39:05

No the fact that they are not audited is in itself not a problem.

I am not aware of a request being made at congress to change that but I could be wrong.

I cannot comment about impropriety. My personal belief is that everything was done in good faith.
However when more money is being spent than is being earned year after year, its natural that people want to know where their money is going.

Audited accounts provide that information every year to members and that is why we chose that route

Patrick Walsh

22/11/2017 18:10:40

If people want to know where their money is going, and so they should, a motion to congress that called for accounts to be audited would surely pass, no ?

If that has not been done, I wonder why ? It seems a lot less hassle to at least have attempted that, rather than starting a new organisation.

Still, had it been done and ratified, I imagine a lot of people would moan about the increased cost and mutter darkly, as they did at Congress.

But we all know in our own lives that everything is getting more expensive year on year, so it can hardly be a surprise that a static capitation fee and rising costs becomes unfeasible in time.

I know there are other issues.

Michael Hughes

22/11/2017 23:08:32

Patrick,

Here is an example of FIBKA economic activity and the reference in the accounts never tells the full story.
How much does it cost to have a stand at the 3 days of the ploughing championships.

Who attends this stand and whose honey gets sold there?

Do the sellers pay a commission to partially offset the cost of the stand?

How do you qualify to be able to bring along your honey for sale?

If there is no sales percentage coming back to FIBKA it is clear to me that every association is paying the full cost of that stand for the benefit of the chosen few.
Show me where that is reflected in the accounts please?????

BTW nobody reads/understands the accounts in most organisations.

Gearóid Ó Fathaigh

27/11/2017 13:48:12

I bought some lovely heather honey from one of the board members at the Ploughing in 2016 - it was lovely and not too badly priced!

Patrick Walsh

2/12/2017 19:04:49

Hi Michael,

For some reason I missed the email notification of your post, I probably deleted without reading. Anyway, thank you very much for this input. I appreciate it.

I've never been to the ploughing in my life, plus I am a new beekeeper, so I don't know which individuals are involved - but a situation as you have presented it here, would not be acceptable practice. My opinion.

If I felt strongly enough about it to go and start a new organisation, I'm sure I would first have challenged the individuals. Either at the event, or at Congress.

Has that happened ? What was the response ?

I take your point about accounts not being being read/understood.

Regards,

Patrick

Jacqui Glisson

3/12/2017 09:20:49

Hi Patrick, we did attempt to address most of these issues at the last congress.
I stood up and asked that some emergency motions be heard. If ever there was an emergency in the association it was then.
I was not allowed to speak.
Nor was I given an answer as to why I could not ask the questions my association wanted me to ask.
I was pretty much ignored.

John Martin when asking about the insurance was not given the microphone to speak, and it was only because the floor erupted in protest that he eventually was heard.

They were the best attended Congresses ever. People wanted their questions answered, but we were not allowed to ask any questions and the only thing on the agenda was the increased capitation fee.
Once that was pushed through congress was swiftly closed and we were sent packing

Numerous letters were written asking for clarification. 16 associations asked for an EGM to address these issues. The letter asking for the EGM was ignored and numerous letters still remain unanswered.

Its only now that there is another option that the answers are starting to trickle down.

It was a truly frustrating and demoralizing process

George Kingston

23/11/2017 10:36:39

Just to clarify the objections the Sneem beekeepers had about the increase of the capitation fee to 48 euros by FIBKA, many of our members have one, two or three hives and are fortunate to get a super or two of honey in any year, which is due to the excess rainfall we get compared to the rest of the country. They keep their bees for the love of them and some members keep them just to act as pollinators.
My understanding is the insurance would be costing less than 10% of the capitation fee and as our members have seen very little else from their sub, outside the magazine.
At our meeting at the beginning of the month, every member of our association voted unanimously to cancel our membership of FIBKA and join IBA CLG and paid their sub there and then.
In a previous comment it was said that if they couldn't afford the increased sub, they shouldn't be keeping bees. Bee keeping traditionally was a means of poor or low income people to earn a little extra money and even today retired folk take it up as an interest and maybe to earn a little extra cash, or just to have their own honey.
Having attended the EGM in Sept. and saw the way the meeting was conducted, I was convinced that forming a new association was the only way to go.

Patrick Walsh

3/12/2017 19:03:32

George,

You say...'In a previous comment it was said that if they couldn't afford the increased sub, they shouldn't be keeping bees.'

I would like to clarify, just in case you are referring to myself here, that what I said was something quite different to that. I said...

'...anyone dithering over ten or twenty euro increases in the capitation has no idea of either the set-up or ongoing costs of beekeeping, and very possibly can't afford to keep bees.'

Simply not the same thing at all, and I don't think it helps to be casual about expressing each other's stated point of view.

The negative effect on attracting beginners to the craft has been made, as an objection to the increase in capitation.

However, the good old days of the lower classes and their butter-box beekeeping are in the past, and this is now an expensive hobby.

I hope that is being made clear to beginners' courses.

Can we agree on that much ?

I am not for a moment arguing against other possible objections to an increase that are being expressed here. I simply haven't been on the scene long enough to be aware of them.

Anyone in their right mind wants value for their money.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jacqui,

Again I can't reply directly to your comment above - thanks for that background, I wasn't at the second Congress.

I'm struck by your last sentence in particular.

Regards,

Patrick

Michael Hughes

24/11/2017 04:06:18

Keith Ball wrote:

"How can we do better wh

When it comes to influencing what greets our bees when they leave the apiary?

Avoiding beekeeping dogma and celebrating our "eccentrics".

Fostering amicable disagreement.

There are others. But all of these ends are, in my view, best achieved if we remain as one body and do not associate only with those who already agree with us."

Keith, I had remained in one body as you advise, for 5 years. I had NO CHOICE. As for fostering amicable disagreement, that body failed abysmally to see any other reason than that of one person.
As for talking about money, it was the least of my motivations as I could afford the increase. It was the fragmentation of the Associations that was fostered and promoted by the Executive that told me I was in a cold house. Every new Association over the last 20 years has been a breakaway from an existing association.
It was a form of gerrymandering to ensure that a few large Associations ruled the roost and forced through everything at Congress.
The organisation got stale (people there long past their sell by date).
Hangers on to ensure they got the extra few bob for doing whatever they liked. They were successful because 4/5 large Associations passed their proposals through congress.
Keith, FIBKA has become a bit like the EU, the big states decide, there is a democratic deficit. If you cannot see that, you need to stand back and inform yourself as to why so many associations were railroaded over the years.
If you think you can reform FIBKA, best of luck with that.
The greatest reform that FIBKA will embrace may arise from the threat of implosion brought about by IBA from the outside, and NOT from any altruistic insider movement.

George kingston

9/12/2017 12:51:19

Patrick, first of all I object to you calling anybody lower class, just because they may be poor, secondly, outside the initial cost of purchasing your bees, bee keeping need not be an expensive hobby People that haven't a lot of spare money can be very resourceful.
Many bee keepers don't keep their bees just for monetary gain and maybe don't have the most expensive of equipment,but they certainly are still beekeepers and who is to say their methods are better of worse than those with the expensive equipment?

Jacqueline Glisson

9/12/2017 13:23:08

I agree George. In my own association many beekeepers have one or two hives. Many of which they have made themselves. It doesn't cost a lot to keep a few hives with a bit of resourcefulness

Patrick Walsh

9/12/2017 16:24:16

Lower class is a well-established sociological term. I very obviously used it in that historical sense..

It is not by itself a pejorative term, so no need for a thoughtful reader to be offended.

Neither did I say anything about anyone's methods being better or worse based on the value of their equipment.

Why cultivate imaginary offenses ?

George Kingston

9/12/2017 21:14:18

Hi Patrick,
I see from one of your posts that you are new to bee keeping, I would suggest that you sit back and educate yourself about the reasons that IBA CLG was set up by former members of FIBKA, some of whom held some of the highest offices and then choose which organisation you wish to join. Some of your comments so far are not in the spirit of inclusiveness and friendship that the founders of IBA CLG laid down.

Patrick Walsh

15/12/2017 14:53:51

George,

A more thorough reading of my posts should have been enough to indicate that I have been 'educating myself' on the important issues.

Some quotes from my posts on this thread...

''Is the openness and transparency issue around finances, or is there more to it ?''

...................................

''I would like to get to the heart of the question of finances.

Is the fact that FIBKA accounts are not audited a problem in and of itself ?

If so, have attempts been made by delegates to past congresses, to change this ?

If not, is there a problem of impropriety, and on what grounds is that alleged ? ''

..........................................

''If people want to know where their money is going, and so they should, a motion to congress that called for accounts to be audited would surely pass, no ?

If that has not been done, I wonder why ?''

----------------------------------------------------

You can be certain that I am also asking questions of long-standing and continuing FIBKA members, including questions based on information that I am gathering here.

Could I respectfully suggest to you that your condescending 'advice', that I 'sit back and educate' myself is hardly inclusive and friendly.

george Kingston

15/12/2017 16:29:36

Hi Patrick,
I think questions about FIBKA finances would be better directed at FIBKA as to why their 2016 accounts were still not available in September 2017, why so many executive expenses are unvouched, etc. I could go on, but IBA CLG is no longer about any reason why so many have chosen to leave FIBKA, rather it's about bee and bee keeping.
I would suggest that rather than just asking members of FIBKA about what concerns you,which can only be a personal opinion on their part, write into An Beachaire and see whether they are prepared to answer the questions you asked here.
As regards putting motions to congress, the best of luck on that one. Up to now the smaller bee keeper was very much ignored.

When I became a bee keeper at first, my concern was about learning about bees and not the politics of my local or national association and saying that I am not trying to be condescending in any way. IMHO,your questions and queries would be better directed at some of the members here who would be more than happy to answer any question you have about bees and bee husbandry.

Your comment will be posted after it is approved.

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